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Breaking Down The Celtics/Clippers Trade Talks

 

Although things remained quiet as one might expect on a Father’s Day in regards to the potential blockbuster of Doc Rivers and Kevin Garnett heading to Los Angeles, the trade talks are far from a dead issue.

A resolution in one way or another will be figured out in the next couple days as both sides try to solidify their offseason plans.

Earlier today, I joined Murray and Trupiano on 98.5 The Sports Hub in Boston to discuss a variety of issues surrounding the deal. Is Doc Rivers to blame for wanting to leave town? What’s a fair return for the Celtics even if he does leave? I broke it down with the guys.

  • GymRat

    Have to agree with the comments on losing fans and I liked hearing that the bad mid-level contracts that Ainge signed are really the problem though I think it's unfair to call Terry and Lee bums and you can toss in Bass' contract as another bad one.

    Those were poor decisions all around to give deals that long and big to role players that tied up all the cap freedom and put the team in a position where they can't help PP and KG so trading them (almost) makes sense.

    I'm with the interviewer though that the rebuild is a fast path to losing fans and having 2-3 season of just plain bad basketball. I love Rondo and am becoming a fan of Sullinger, but I'll find it hard to watch a cheer for a franchise that dumped PP, and sold Doc and KG off as a package deal for Bledsoe and some cap space.

    • MSTRKRFT

      I know you dislike Ainge and have an agenda against him, but let's talk real here. Doc was the one that was lobbying for Lee to come here due to their friendship (look how that turned out). Ainge also ended up signing more guards, to replace Ray's departure (Terry) and due to Doc's recommendation to surround Rondo with shooters. Everyone looking at our bench in the off-season stated that we had one of the strongest or if not the strongest bench coming into this season. Yes, we lacked a strong inside presence, but there was no one available for the money we could offer. Take note that Doc tossed Darko to the corner despite having a strong pre-season, and Sully went down with injury (after not being played for most of the season anyways). Talent was extremely mismanaged and that's on Doc. After the way Doc has behaved this offseason by betraying his team on contract (highest paid in the NBA at that), you really want to see this guy's mug again next season? He better be gone, this coach is insanely over-rated, over-hyped, and mediocre.

      • GymRat

        Happy to debate you on this, but you're presenting things that just aren't true.

        First, I don't have an agenda against Ainge. I just don't like him or the way he conducts business. If that's an agenda, fine. It isn't a very effective one since Ainge is going to do what he's going to do no matter what I say.

        Second, I don't have a problem with the talent we signed. I'm actually one of the few people who have defended Jet and Lee. It was the length of the contracts and the amount of money paid to each player. They just didn't make sense. They committed this team to a 4-5 year plan with the current roster, when, at best, it would be good for 1-2 years.

        Third, Darko requested he be released before the season really started citing family reasons. How is that on Doc?

        Fourth, you claim Sully was not played for most of the season. Clearly you didn't follow the games closely. Having watched every minute of 80 games this season, you couldn't me more misinformed. Sully's role continued to grow to the point he was a starter and earning most of the minutes at PF. A lineup that was incredibly successful and our best frontcourt D – up until he was injured.

        Fifth, this team needed rebounding and interrior defense to take the load off KG. We signed Darko who is a journeyman that was a top pick that become one of the biggest busts in basketball and a permanent fixture on the bench instead of guys like Kenyon Martin and Birdman who both were available until mid-season and made huge contributions to post season runs and yes, we could have afforded either of them…possibly even both as Darko had a pretty generous contract.

        I'm actually not a huge fan of Doc as a coach. But it's simply not true his is misbehaving. It's very clear and has been since the season ended that he KG and PP are a package deal. If Danny is trading away one of them – they all want to go.

        How is that betraying the team? If anything it's being loyal to the heart of this team.

        You're welcome to your opinion and I'm happy to take note, but how about supporting it with some actual facts and figures instead of distorting what actually happened.

        • Anthony

          Gonna have to agree with MSTRKRFT here. It does seem you have a strong dislike for DA. By all accounts, Doc and DA have a great working and personal relationship. I don't want to assume but I would certainly think that Doc have a strong say in who the Celts draft and trade for. Going into the season, everyone was indeed excited about the roster and I even go as far as to say they praised DA. Now that CLee, JET, and Bass didn't meet our expectation, DA shoulders most of the blame? Wasn't everyone ripping him to shreds for the JGreen contract? But the opinion seem to have shifted. What about Rondo's favorable contract? Or even KG's? Barbosa? DA doesn't get any credit for those favorable contracts? Doc is as much to blame as DA for the current state of the Celts. Had the team not sustain those major injuries and won say 48-52 games, would DA still get so much blame?

          Also, Doc didn't know how to play most of the roster… see JGreen, Sully, JET, and everyone's new fave Shavlik. I think Sully's playing time had as much to do with Bass' poor play as it did with his superb play. Last point on Doc, he had to know that within the 5yrs of his new contract, Celts would be in some sort of rebuild. To want out, it's a little disheartening.

          The Pierce situation was as much a fault of the new CBA as it was DA. Your favorite GM Sam Presti made arguably the biggest mistake in the Harden trade partially as a result of the new CBA.

          It's a bit harsh for BRobb to call JET, CLee and whoever else bums just because they didn't live up to his expectations. As far as KMart and Birdman are concern, it wasn't that big of a loss IMO. Not that the 2012 roster were all model citizens but I prefer a team with character guys. KMart just doesn't fit that mold. The whole wearing black to go a funeral thing was plain stupid. That's why I wouldn't want a guy like JR Smith on the team despite his potential. I just rather not have that on the team.

          • GymRat

            I can't stand DA. I've been pretty open and vocal about that. But there's no agenda other than me voicing my opinion.

            How do you know that Doc and DA have a great relationship?

            This is a genuine question. Of course it's portrayed that way in the media…but if you look at what is playing out does it really appear that they have a great relationship? To me it looks like a powerplay between the coach and the GM for the future of the franchise. If Doc simply wanted out of his contract to retire or coach elsewhere as you're both stating he would just say so and leave.

            He's clearly using his power to try and keep PP and KG here. He can coach the Clippers without KG. And he could have interviewed for the Memphis position or the Nets or other teams that have a legitimate shot to play for the title this season or next. Why isn't he doing that? It doesn't make sense. You're saying he wants out and I'm saying his actions don't reflect that because if the Clips deal falls apart he's got no options when if he left a month ago he'd be the top candidate for almost any job or relaxing into retirement. He clearly wants to coach. And he clearly would like that to be in Boston but only if DA has his back.

            There was a beautiful article yesterday on NBA.com about creating a winning culture and how SA and Mami have done it by keeping the core of their teams together from the top down and being patient when things don't work out. 2 seasons ago (maybe 3) SA has the best record in the league but gets bounced out in the first round. SA didn't go into rebuild or panic, they didn't offer to trade TD or Manu because they were aging, they made a few minor roster changes and now they're playing for the title. Meanwhile Memphis trades away several key players then fires their coach despite their best record ever and DA is tearing the place apart despite never really getting to see the team he put together in action. There is a terrible culture in Boston right now, and that's all on DA…not Doc. No player is safe from being traded, there is no loyalty even to a "no-trade" clause. It's sad.

            And yes, that's all on the management and ownership as well.

            As far as this Clipper deal – it's pure speculation if it's on Doc for wanting out of his contract, or if DA is forcing him out by refusing to keep the core of the team intact that he committed to through various contracts.

            Simple truth is when there is a long drawn out situation like this (we saw it last year in Orlando where ownership praised Van Gundy and the talk of how close Howard and he were – then it all blew up) that the relationships are strained and have been for some time.

            If they were tight this would have all been settled behind closed doors and Doc would never publically say in a post conference right after the final game of the season that he is not sure he'll be back and clearly frustrated with the direction the team is headed.

            And the "character guys" convo is silly. Is T-Will a model citizen? KMart has edge but so what. I'm not a fan of Birdman but he hasn't hurt the culture of Miami and was an absolute beast against Indiana shooting over 90% and making a definite impact.

          • Anthony

            That's already a silly argument that you ask how do I know if they have a great relationship. Obviously I don't know them personally and am going by what I see and hear from the media. By the same regard, how do I know if any of what you say is true? Do you have some "sources" that nobody else has access to?

            Fact is, DA was the first to go on record and say Doc was coming back, did he not? Where as Doc is dillidallying (i guess that's a word) around the issue for a month and a half. And this is where the issue stands… Sure, it's understandable that he only wants to coach if KG and/or Pierce is back but he had to have known that there was rebuilding process when he sign the 5yr contract. He's paid $7 million to coach and be essentially the face/ spokesperson of the franchise, not turn the other way when the franchise needs him to stand pat.

            Your example with the Spurs is moot, because they are the sole exception to almost every rule. The RC/ Pop/ Duncan relationship is not something you see regularly if ever. The 2011 Spurs rid themselves 3 of their 9 key players (Richard Jefferson, George Hill and Antonio McDyess). All 3 were either starters or spot starters. Those are fairly significant moves. Manu and Parker were still in their prime (just look at their numbers) so there's no reason for them to make any major moves. After KG's injury, you can make a case that only Pierce was still in him prime, even though he was slipping too. Timmy was slipping but he's still the face of the franchise. Timmy also took a significant hometown discount (over $6 mil less than KG) on his contract extension.

            DA maxed out the Big Three for 6 great years when their window was only supposed to be 3. I say that's not bad any way you look at it. Miami Big 3 could potentially be done after next season. And if they can't win this year, they would've only had 1 chip in 4 seasons. One which happens to be in the lockout season. I say, Celts and DA were still more successful during that time span.

            I was saying I didn't want KMart on the team, had nothing to do with DA's decision. Who said DA didn't want to sign him? Didn't he choose to play for the Knicks because of Carmelo? If that were the case, shouldnt the blame go on Doc for not making a better recruiting effort. Would he have made the Celts a contender? NO. Would you have applaud DA had he sign either one of them? Probably not,

            All this is just plain silly. DA and Doc should share the some of the blame. The rest should go to the players who underperformed.

          • GymRat

            Plain silly it is. And boring. I'll ignore your responses from now on. Moot and silly aren't really the kind of thoughtful arguments I have time for.

            Yawn.

  • dasein

    I'm good with dealing these guys if the haul is actually going to help going forward. If not, I'm also good with bringing the band back again. KG, PP, healthy Rondo, healthy Sully, more comfortable Green, improved Bradley… that's not a bad core. And Jet and Lee can't play much worse but they could conceivably be better. Plus Danny may well be able to get a decent rotation guy at 16 in this draft.

    That team won't be a title favorite, but it will be relevant. Also, having a 5% chance at a title is better than 0%. They'd be behind Heat, Pacers, Bulls, Knicks going into the season, but you just never know what will happen.

    • MSTRKRFT

      Any haul would be better than letting them retire/walk after their contract and leaving us high and dry. If this trade goes through, our rebuilding process will be much faster and we will have trade assets. I don't mind everyone coming back, but I really don't want Doc to come back. I never seen a head coach be so unloyal to a team while on contract despite all these years on the Celtics. You signed that big, fat contract with the duties of rebuilding this team and now you run. He obviously doesn't understand what a contract is and can his players look at him with a straight face after he said he would rather retire or do broadcast than coach them? Get real. I want a coach that is fully committed to the team, not this coward.

  • g12

    Starting to feel the same as many other’s in that doc needs to go. This is based on his desire to leave if in fact this is true and not some spoon-fed typical nba bs for this lack luster off season. Since we are now in the paradigm of coach ‘trades’ how about we swap doc for tibs, send kg, pp, and rondo to chi-town as well for rose and noah … doc and kg will be back hone.What a tacky league this has become. I’m back to 2007 and officially ashamed to be a fan. I dont think danny can make this right with a bunch of crap from the clippers!

  • Jon Deegan

    You guys are idiots … Plain & simple !!! Rivers didn't even want to come back he wanted to watch his son play the final years of college basketball. Ainge bribed him back with this stupid contract. He knew in his heart the C's were not a title contender even w/out the injuries. Now he wants to either retire to broadcasting or coach a title contender. He has proven he has the skills to manage a high profile team. Let people control their own destiny ! If he wants out for whatever reason let him go. nobody stops you when you want to quit your job do they ( other than your wife maybe ??? LOL ) This trade is awesome … if the Celtics get Jordan & Bledsoe w/ an additional #1 draft pick we absolutely need to do it ! We will have a great young team with awesome guards ( Rondo – Bradley – Bledsoe ) Jordon @ center & Sullinger @ PF Green at SF … are you kidding me ??? That's awesome and add in some depth your looking great for the now and later. Don't be like Houston and hold fan favorites until there worthless … play for what makes this team better even if it means losing our beloved PP KG DR … My vote is in … TRADE THEM ALL

    • GymRat

      And the rest of the people on here are idiots?

      You think adding to role players from a team that (also) couldn't make it past the first round despite having two all-stars in their prime and the deepest bench in the league along with high (aka useless) lottery picks is going to be a great team.

      You can't even play Rondo, Bradley and Bledsoe together so you've traded two HOFs for a bench player or if you did it would be the smallest and least scoring front courts in basketball…oh, and wait…then you add DJordan who also can't score and is such a liability as a free throw shooter he's kept off the court most of the game playing only 20 minutes.

      Sully is a good prospect, but not a reliable or consistent scorer either.

      So who is doing all the scoring for this great young team? Jeff Green who some nights will get you 30 plus…and others will get you 6 pts?

      That's a great team? You must like watching the ball never go through the hoop for your own team.

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